I was fortunate enough to have a conversation with Dorothy Mashburn, the woman on a mission to close the gender pay gap. She has recently launched her platform which is dedicated to providing (mainly female) individuals with training to successfully negotiate their salaries and navigate their careers with confidence. I caught up with the Arizona-based entrepreneur to find out more about her mission.

HR: Why did you decide to start your business? Was there a ‘lightbulb’ moment?

DM: Over the years I have coached a lot of younger, inexperienced, yet talented women navigating the corporate world. A couple of years ago, I coached someone with her career who was so high achieving and extremely talented. She was applying for a junior manager job and I coached her through the process. Later, after she got the job, I asked her: did you get a big pay raise? She thought she didn’t deserve any extra money. She took the promotion as a favour! She felt somebody picked her and gave her this opportunity and she should be grateful. That was when I started thinking about it - how have we been groomed from an early age to wait for recognition? That’s when I thought I wanted to help create that confidence for women, and here I am with a full-time mentoring business!

HR: When did you personally first notice this discrepancy, i.e. not being recognised for your worth and being paid less than a male counterpart?

DM: About 15 years ago, 5 years into my career, I started a job where I was treated well. I started the same time as a man where we were doing the same projects and had the same responsibilities. More often than not, though, I was the one who was volunteering to present the work and finish it off. I was convinced it was trajectory and I would be rewarded for this. One day, my male counterpart and I were talking about buying a house. During this conversation, it was revealed that he was earning 15k more in compensation. It was a shock! I felt hurt, defeated, and undervalued. Within a month, I went to my boss and asked for more, but he told me no. Funnily enough, he couldn’t give me a reason why and also said we shouldn’t be discussing salary in the first place. I didn’t give up and I went back in eight months with the same questions. Thankfully he created a path for me, and I did eventually get a pay raise. But what I learned is that I just cannot assume that I will get the money compensated for the work I am doing!

HR: The female career negotiation business is quite a niche market, despite the gender pay gap being an issue… forever. Do you think, after seeing your success and more and more women seeking your help, that it’s starting to grow at a far more rapid rate?

DM: A shift has happened, for example, there is a very recent study from UC Berkeley that shows that in the past 3-5 years women have been asking for more compensation and standing up for themselves in this way. It’s common knowledge there is a gender pay gap - but it’s also become common knowledge that women try to check every box for a job compared to men, who apply for jobs even when they only satisfy about half the criteria. And, overall, women are being told no more than men for the same request.

HR: That’s interesting. But - why? Why are women being told no more?

DM: What works for men doesn’t necessarily work for women. What is seen as confidence in men, is seen as aggression in women; passion in men is seen as hysterical in women. We have double standards to overcome! For example, a lot of the books on negotiation are written by men for men. The language of these men is therefore adopted - words such as power, and leverage - where these competitive masculine words feel inauthentic when used by women.

HR: And that’s where you come in! I’d like to find out more about your new platform. What has been the response so far?

DM: Overwhelming! So many people have reached out, which is a good problem to have (laughs). It’s passion and purpose driven so it doesn’t feel like work. But I’ve had people who say things like “I’m just a transitioning teacher”. They think they cannot climb up the job ladder, and they negotiate against themselves. Some also assume they can only get a job that matches their current salary and don’t believe they can get more! But a recent example is of a teacher who approached me, and ended up getting a role as an analyst and jumped from 41k to 97k. Anyone can do it!

HR: I’m glad to hear it's been positive! But I was wondering, have you ever had any comeback against what you’re doing? From men, for example?

DM: There have been… I have this motto, though, that if you have haters then you’re pressing the right buttons. Especially on TikTok, where people think it's okay to say whatever they want. I’ve been called a home wrecker because apparently, empowerment of women equals disruption to the home life! On LinkedIn, however, people have politely disagreed, arguing that it is not a systemic problem, it’s an individual problem and women should and can just ask. If they have the right skills, they will be compensated fairly.

HR: ‘Not a systemic problem’! That is crazy. Has that view come from men?

DM: It’s mostly men, but a couple of women believe in the free market so much that they feel that the free market is truly “free” and if you naturally possess the skills and talent, the free market will reward you.

The thing is, however, a lot of my mentors have been men. At first, they don’t understand that it’s a lack of confidence that has stopped me, or other women, from asking for more. It’s funny because they have assumed women ‘aren’t interested’ in a higher salary… you have to communicate with them explicitly. There is a communication gap, but when you highlight the real reasons, they have been more than willing to open doors. We need our allies.

HR: I agree. Men need to be just as aware and informed of the disparity for any real change to happen. Have you ever had any men seek your help?

DM: Yes actually, I have had men reach out to me. Mainly they have been teachers who are asking for advice on transitioning roles, as well as general career advice. I don’t want my business to be polarising; I offer a variety of mentoring practices and anyone should feel they can reach out if they want to. Women need help from men - to further my point about allies, we can’t do it alone!

HR: Interesting. Overall though, who makes up your audience? Demographically, do you have a rough idea of where your audience is based?

DM: My audience is mostly American women, but also minorities from the Hispanic and Black communities. Recent statistics show that white women make 83 cents to the dollar, Black women make 70% of what men make, and Hispanic women earn about 65% compared to what men make. It gets progressively worse if you are in a minority group. It is much more frustrating for them, so they are seeking a way out and to close this larger gap which is why I’m seeing more people from these minorities. The platform has also reached beyond North America though; I even had a woman from Costa Rica reach out to me just to say everything I said resonated with her. It made my day!

HR: That just goes to show you are a role model to many professional women; but who is your role model?

DM: Michelle Obama. I think because she did take a second seat to her husband but she always had her power, her message, and her platform. She’s confident; a lawyer, comfortable in her skin. Her message is: you can stay at home with your kids if that’s your choice - it should be your choice. I would have loved to see her as president (laughs) but at least that was her choice. Her message of hope and taking the high road is good because I feel a lot of us have lost our empathy muscle over the past couple of years. Her message of hope is the main thing that resonates with me.

HR: What are your plans for the future? How will your platform develop and are there any other services you are planning to launch?

DM: I expect that a part of my business growth will be leading from salary negotiation to mentoring leadership skills. If I can teach people how to have those leadership skills, they will be set for life. So it would mean that leadership skills will automatically generate skills that are useful for salary negotiation. I also plan to do mentorship workshops in stages, to use different sections from the training, to help you at each stage of your career.

HR: Sounds exciting! Thank you, Dorothy!

Dorothy’s next workshop is on the 14th of December on ‘How to ask for a pay raise’, and she is planning a workshop to target confidence and self-esteem on the 18th of January 2024.

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Hendrike (hen-dree-ka) is from South East London and enjoys writing lifestyle articles and interviewing interesting people. She has always been passionate about writing even from a young age and then developing her writing and editing skills at university, alongside her degree in Psychology. She loves to read; her favourite authors at the moment are Natalia Ginzburg, Ocean Vuong, and Megan Nolan, and she always has a magazine on the go.

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